Computer Says Maybe

Alix: [00:00:00] Hey friends. Welcome back. Before we get started with the show, I wanted to share a couple of things. The first is that I am coming at you from Nebraska City, Nebraska. Words I never thought I'd say, but if my voice sounds a bit afraid, it's 'cause I've been facilitating. For the past few days, a wonderful group of folks, and I'm headed home today after 10 days on the road.

Alix: Last week I was in New York for Climate Week. We had an incredible time with friends that are based in New York, but also folks that came from all around the world, including three incredible guests. That you're gonna hear more from in just a second in the show. We also had a chance to sit down with friends based in New York and did some of our first full video recorded interviews.

Alix: The first of those you can listen to and also see on YouTube with Sarah West. We dug into the specifics of the financials of AI companies with all these really big deals happening. What does it actually mean for our economy? What does it actually mean in terms of the AI sector? And it's attempt to find a [00:01:00] market for what it is trying to build.

Alix: This week we have three episodes. Dropping today is the one where you're about to hear. It was the live show that Climate Week on Friday we have our normally scheduled show coming out, and it's the third installment of our gotcha series with Alice Marwick and Lana Swartz, who are gonna share more about the research they've done on the effects of generative AI in our scammy world.

Alix: This live show is a special one. Um, the guests in it came from all over the United States. From communities where they have been working to push back against the cavalier and environmentally devastating expansion of AI infrastructure in places where data centers don't belong and communities don't want them.

Alix: And they've done an amazing job of communicating the stakes of our current situation. Um, there are tons of resources in the show notes. For you to feast on. Uh, so please dig into it and we'll also share more information there about how you can get in touch with the folks on the show and learn more about their work because they are incredible.

Alix: So with that, onto our live show from Climate Week in New York City. Let [00:02:00] them eat compute.

Alix: We are live at climate week, which I will be honest, I didn't really know what that was until very recently. Um, but it turns out loads of people come to this city to talk about. Climate environmental issues. And this year it seems like AI is majorly on the agenda. So we decided to go all in and hang out with friends and family.

Alix: I will say my mother is here if you wanna find someone that can tell you about how irritating I was as a teenager. Um, that knowledge is in this room. Um, but we wanted to also take this opportunity to invite. People that are working on the front lines of resisting the cavalier, ridiculous expansion of data centers around the United States.

Alix: And not just to elevate local stories, but to elevate the local leaders who we need at this time and have them telling us directly what they want, what they see, what they think. 'cause I feel like the political vision that they bring to these conversations is essential for right now. Before we sort of double down in [00:03:00] the US context, which is where a lot of these.

Alix: Folks are coming from, we wanted to sort of set the stage a little bit about the global dimension of this question. Um, particularly because Amba and I were just in Kenya for a week with lovely organizers from all over the world that are fighting. Basically the same fights. I would say. Should we start there Amba and explain a little bit about the things we have learned?

Amba: We, we can. I do want to just say that this is like my first climate week where I was sort of more involved and she lives in New York. I live, I live in New York, but have somehow avoided, um. All of this. But I think like, just the one thing to say is that climate Week this year and a lot of the conversations that have been happening, many of you have been in, some of those have had, uh, you know, 2025 energy in the best and worst ways.

Amba: So we're no longer on the precipice of crisis and meekly planning for what we will do when it comes. We are pretty much living through it, and I think that has brought this like [00:04:00] real talk from every quarter, whether it's the tech companies that, you know, no longer need to. Pretend to care about sustainability and net zero or multilateralism and the international order is like taking its last gasps and struggling for relevance and, and to survive, really.

Amba: But I think in that mode, what's actually been kind of exciting is that in the debris of whatever moment we're in, there's just been a whole lot more candor about, seems like maybe the, the strategies we were investing in for the last. Uh, some years were co-op and they were brittle in a very. I guess in some ways almost by design.

Amba: And so this is the moment to like figure out what the new strategy is and the conversation we are gonna have in a few minutes with, you know, the leaders we just mentioned, I think kind of illuminate the climate and AI conversations we need to be having, the strategies we need to be investing in. I just wanted to name that and just to, to even say that it is, this is a conversation where it's gonna be apparent to everyone in a second, but it [00:05:00] is one that is rooted.

Amba: In the material, in local impacts, in affordability, and in communities that see like this AI moment as one of continuity, not rupture in a much longer history of environmental racism, of corporate extractivism. And the solution space that is also on offer is widely different. So I just wanna name that I think this is, this is why this conversation is vital.

Amba: Nairobi. Yeah, I mean, there's so much to say and I, I guess. The one thing that struck me was that both in the kind of pattern of the problem, so this very opaque, undemocratic incursion into resource stressed areas and in the source of the resistance, which is rooted in neighborhood community organizations, investigative journalism, came up a lot in Nairobi across Brazil, uh, Mexico, Kenya, India, right?

Amba: Like there is definitely a unifying story and also. I guess the obvious note there is [00:06:00] that there's connective tissue to build both within this country but also

Alix: internationally. Yeah, I mean, there were so many common elements, but I think in the different countries where people are being encountered by these big companies saying, we have a ton of money to just buy up all your stuff, and we're gonna do that now, whether you like it or not.

Alix: That pattern was definitely, uh, persistent across examples. But the way the communities were fighting back, I feel like there was some variety. And I dunno, do you wanna talk a little bit about the Brazil example? 'cause I feel like this is a super interesting fight happening right now where I think it's TikTok is building a giant data center or wants to build a giant data center in Brazil.

Alix: And local communities are like, why? Why? We don't want that. But how does one resist a company that comes in and basically be witches local policy makers saying, this is gonna create a lot of jobs. This is what you want, this is the future, really. And isn't it wonderful that you have an opportunity to be a part of that?

Alix: But local communities have taken some really interesting actions to. Stop it from happening.

Amba: Yeah, and and to be clear, these are indigenous groups that do not have official land title. And so [00:07:00] the legal advocacy has been rooted in firstly making the claim that under international law, which to which Brazil is a signatory.

Amba: And then therefore it also via their constitution that these groups have a say. They have to be consulted and their consent must be required for any projects on their land. In pursuing that creative legal strategy, again, I think there is a unifying theme. Which is that, and again, we are gonna hear about this in a second, but there is a sort of whack-a-mole quality to data center resistance.

Amba: You know, you, you shut it down somewhere, it opens up somewhere else, or maybe it opens up in the same place in a slightly different way. That kind of onslaught can feel overwhelming and in some ways, uh, demotivating. But I think what a lot of folks here and in, in the conversations we were witness to in Nairobi are very clear about is that there needs to be the next phase or the phase that we're we're entering is like, how do we.

Amba: Push for those more structural, legal and policy, um, you know, pathways that help just. Change the terms of the [00:08:00] debate so that we're not always starting from scratch. And that's obviously much harder said than done. It is is not a new idea, it's just harder to push through. But it was interesting to see that that's where the, the conversation was moving.

Alix: Yeah. And it feels like we are starting to see some solution spaces that are thinking about this structurally. So rather than expecting every single community to go from knowing nothing about data centers to being expert enough to advocate and prevent them from being built, what would it look like to basically say these are the conditions within which these companies can do this?

Alix: So that communities aren't caught on the back foot as much as they are, and you don't have this whackamole quality where industry has all the money in the world. All of the narrative backing wind in their sails coming into these towns and saying, we want to build here. And that's just not a winnable playing field.

Alix: Um, so thinking a little bit about these sort of structural, you know, rights based frameworks that might make it easier for communities to say no. So that's kind of, I mean, I, we just wanted to touch a little bit on that global picture. 'cause I think what ends up happening in these conversations is it becomes.

Alix: The US and then like everywhere else, rather than every single country has an [00:09:00] interesting set of fights and we, we recognize that and I think we also wanna do more work to talk to groups that are resisting in those countries.

Amba: I was just gonna say, I, this also reminded me that last week we heard that.

Amba: Maybe it actually was Brazil again, but the smell test around job generation figures, the reason before they've done their own studies, they're relying on studies from the US to say, we're calling bullshit on these stats. Like we don't think these job generation claims are actually gonna pan out. So there are ways in which even before you kind of create the structures.

Amba: Cross pollination is, is already happening. And especially the like, hardest part of this, which is like the, the evidence gathering. There's so much to kind of borrow and, and draw from.

Alix: And I feel like there are three people here who are deeply expert in all these things and I'm really excited to have them come sit in these chairs right here.

Alix: And actually the first one, um, KD minor who is coming from Louisiana. And has just taught me that the most recent project, um, or the figures that you quoted earlier, is that for every single job, one job that these data centers were [00:10:00] meant to provide cost a $2 million tax subsidy. So when you start thinking about the trade-offs, Katie knows so much and has been like amazing, uh, working with people to help them understand what the implications are of these data centers.

Alix: So, Katie, join us.

Alix: We have, um, Keyshawn Pearson, who has been fighting against the work of XAI, which has basically just been poisoning communities in Memphis, and he's here to talk about that battle. So Keyshawn.

Alix: And we don't have victories very often, which I know that. I don't wanna say victory fully 'cause I know this is a fight that continues. But if you heard recently about a community in Tucson successfully pushing back against Project Blue, um, we have one of the core organizers who made that possible. So, Mary Soul, do you wanna join us?

Alix: Woo.

Alix: This just got a lot better. Um, okay, so we just wanted to start giving you all space to talk a little bit about your work, about these fights, how you [00:11:00] frame them, how you think about them. And I feel like maybe should we start with you, Katie? You wanna start at the end and let's come this way?

KD: Yeah. And while I yap we're gonna pass around some paperwork so y'all can kind of get a sense of the.

KD: Types of secrecy behind these deals. Right. And so, um, I'm based down in New Orleans. I serve as the community Solutions manager for the Alliance for Affordable Energy. We're the state's only consumer advocate at the Public Service Commission. What that means is when a utility wants to do a thing, I scrutinize it.

KD: Um, and so how I really got into this work is I'm nosy. Y'all like I, I am nosy. And we were hearing rumors about. Something new, something big coming to Louisiana. Um, but no one was really actually, uh, saying anything. Right. And so another part of my work was I was working on carbon capture and we built a permit tracker that allowed us to scrape the data and track the developments throughout the state.

KD: Y'all got [00:12:00] on that tracker and I just zoomed in on the approximate area. And that is how I discovered the meta deal. At the time, it was just called Project Sukra. Um, some really just, you know. Project sugar. It sounds sweet, but it's not sweet. Right? Nothing sweet about it. As we're learning and as you'll see from the paperwork, it's hard to be an intervener when this is what you're facing with Right.

KD: Completely redacted testimony. Um, and so, uh, what we've been doing is, you know, we pursued all the legal avenues we could. We filed three motions. First to get them to be a party in the docket. Meta isn't even stepping up to the table in these conversations. They're relying heavily upon their subsidiary laid in this instance.

KD: So one, we were trying to provoke them to be a party in the docket. The judge denied it. We also asked them to. So they had this thing they were asking to bypass the typical process of getting approval for power generation. There's an RFP [00:13:00] process. It's meant to protect the rate payer, and they wanted to bypass the entire thing.

KD: They were able to bypass the entire thing. They used sourcing from other. States, oh, well, you know, we just got turbines quoted in Texas, so we'll just use those numbers. Um, kind of just shuffling us through the paperwork. Um, and then our Public Service Commission rushed the vote and, um, they voted four to one to approve, three brand new gas fired power plants.

KD: Um, two sided in North Louisiana, in one in cancer alley. And so, um, our team has been hard at work, um, to get the word out to folks, Hey, this is happening. This is what you can expect.

Alix: Amazing.

Marisol: Marisol, you wanna share a little bit? Yeah. Okay. I'm Marisol. I'm coming from Autum Land in Tucson, Arizona. Thinking about where our coalition was born, it started, so June 17th was the vote at the Pima County Board of Supervisors.

Marisol: We're like, so many of us gave impassioned speeches and then come to find out. When they show up to vote, they've already made their decision. It's too late to sway their mind at that point. Then, like a chat was started [00:14:00] the night before or a couple nights before that vote, and then on Friday of that week we met up at the foot of Humma Mock Hill, which is.

Marisol: Known as two Tucsons birthplace. Um, and just in that like open space, in that natural space, like we decided to start the coalition and it started with like 20 people and over seven weeks, so many of us were working around the clock to like get the word out. There was a lot of canvassing, social media, outreach, like all, all of the pieces that you know of to, to get the word out to the community.

Marisol: And the thing is like living in the desert because water is. Such a, like, there is scarcity. I, I wanna say, like it does rain. We do have plentiful drinking water, but there's this awareness of like, because there's also a lot of homelessness in Tucson. Like you can see what it looks like to live without water.

Marisol: You see what those like material impacts are on people and also at the border. Water is used as a weapon to make people die instead of getting to this country. Whenever we, you talk to anybody, like I would just go to the library, talk with people, [00:15:00] and within less than a minute, people were already like, no, I am against that.

Marisol: What, who do I need to contact to let them know that I don't want this to happen? Because we had the gift of like a very clear path, like. The county voted in favor of it, but now the city was gonna have to annex the land for the project to go through. Being able to have that clear of a target was really helpful.

Marisol: And the other piece is that the developer did these community info propaganda shows, which were also facilitated by the city manager. So that was really interesting to see. Like our government very clearly in support of this, and then also the county and the city, like pointing fingers at each other of like, who was to blame for this?

Marisol: But because we had that. Space where public officials were there, they were listening. They weren't presenting, but they were like our city council members were present. Without rules of decorum like that are so restrictive in city council chambers, people were screaming, like there were some teenagers screaming for two hours straight.

Marisol: And I think that show of public [00:16:00] opposition was so powerful, like undeniably powerful. It's just so different from direct action in other ways, especially this was happening in the summer. This got pushed through when most of two songs. A lot of the population is gone for the summer. That's just how people in Tucson live.

Marisol: So we really were working against the weather, working against those numbers. Right. And they assumed that they could get it through, but the, the people really showed up now, project Blue, which similarly tries to have this name of like, Ooh, watery Oasis. Like they're trying, they made a contract with TEP, this Canadian owned power utility for Tucson.

Marisol: To try and still make the project go through, even though the land didn't get annexed. And that was supposed to be a very important contingency of that contract, uh, of the sale going through. I think it's just about like these corporations don't want us to set the precedent of having success against them, but I have full faith that.

Marisol: There are like actually multiple ways for us to finally stop them. Um, and also we are [00:17:00] broadening to build coalition with other people in Arizona. Not only fighting AI data centers, but extractive industry at large.

KeShaun: Uh, so first, I gotta say blessed to be here and thankful to be here. Uh, thankful to everybody in Memphis. Um, and especially my family. Uh, my mother, my father, uh, Reverend Jason C. Pearson, Dr. Kimberly Owens. Pearson. My mom just graduated this year. Give it to my mom. Uh, my brother's, Jason, Tim, Justin, Jalen, especially Tim.

KeShaun: My, we lost my brother Tim December 1st of last year. And so I keep him in spirit, every space I'm in. And so I just wanna take a moment to recognize, uh, my beautiful family. And my girlfriend Rachel Corrine Payton can't leave her out. Y'all. My story is one that's an American story. It starts with enslaved people who find purpose, uh, and build community outta scraps.

KeShaun: Box town was founded in 1863 [00:18:00] and they used the scraps of box cars to build actual homes. They were not annexed into the 1970s and they had to sue the city of Memphis in order to get clean drinking water and sewage and city lights. These folks have been fighting for generations growing up in three a 1 0 9 in southwest Memphis.

KeShaun: I noticed the smell since I was very young, but it's something I assumed was being taken care of. Somebody was making sure the air was clean enough, right? Like somebody was making sure, uh, pollution wasn't consuming us and killing us. And so as I continue to grow up, we left Memphis, went to Northern Virginia, and I lost both of my grandmothers to cancer in the early sixties, right?

KeShaun: And so naively we thought it was microwaves has to be something that's going on that has to be some kind of new technology that's causing this. But what we came to learn after fighting against a billion dollar pipeline that we beat, [00:19:00] uh. We learn about all these other fishers and our health and the health impacts.

KeShaun: Our community has a cancer rate four times the national average, and our children have asthma at a higher rate than anyone in the nation, including deaths as well. Our story is one of exploitation, but consistent resistance. In Memphis, we consistently resist against being taken over, being muzzled, being silent, being silenced.

KeShaun: And here in this exact moment, we have the biggest malignant idiot, the most wealthy one as well, who is attempting to continue the same legacy of exploitation and suppression of black sovereignty. It is one of the most beautiful places. Uh, but we continue to see it be targeted, continue [00:20:00] to see it be devalued under invested in, and then targeted by folks who say they're going to bring economic investments.

KeShaun: And so we, we've been up against the same thing. It's the propaganda's, also using government officials to spread, uh, misinformation and myths about what they're doing in Memphis. Uh, we have two facilities, Colossus one and two that are being built out. We've had to breathe the air up up to 33 methane gas turbines running at once, increasing our nitrogen oxide levels by 79% in one year.

KeShaun: And this was done illegally, no permits, right? And so it is this continued exploitation, but we are continually resisting.

Alix: So I wanted to sort of just start there so you have a sense of the breadth of the people and the organizing that these folks are doing and the expertise that they're accumulating as they do this. Because I feel [00:21:00] like they are the people we need to be listening to when we're thinking about not just what to do about resisting these data centers and, and this type of project, this type of colonial project, but also just sort of how to communicate to local communities who may be very excited about some of these projects.

Alix: And I feel like. You. You know, Mariel, you touched on it a little bit, how in conversations with people, the speed with which they understood the implications because of water. But I feel like I'd love to hear a little bit from you all on what you've found is working or in conversations with people in your community.

Alix: Just a little bit on that would be really great to hear. 'cause I think the more we can learn from you about how to message, I think the better we are likely to succeed at communicating the implications of these things.

KeShaun: One thing that we've been able to communicate successfully and. Hopefully I was able to communicate it in the brief moments we already had is that the public health impacts are severe when these, uh, turbines are powered by polluting fossil fuels like methane gas.

KeShaun: And so [00:22:00] that messaging has been a unifying one because unfortunately in Memphis we have folks who either have asthma or are developing it because there is no one reducing the pollution. We deserve to breathe clean air just like everybody else. And so that message and those stakes are very real because unfortunately, everybody knows someone with allergies or asthma.

KeShaun: We're a asthma capital in the United States of America, so we have higher rate of asthma and allergies due to this pollution, due to the nitrogen oxide creating a low ozone, which is small, right? And if you just want to know what it's like, have you ever been anywhere on a hot day and you tried to breathe and it was hard to breathe?

KeShaun: That's what it's like in Memphis consistently, and you can even see it in the sky. And so messaging around what our stakes are health wise have really transcended and been more of a unifying message that folks have been able to really grasp.

Alix: Do you wanna say a little bit? I mean, I know that, um, you said [00:23:00] that because Musk is such a wealthy dude, um, that when he kind of waltz into a community, people presume that the wealth that he brings is gonna enrich them through the process of these kinds of projects.

Alix: So somebody comes up to you and says, this is great. These are like tech jobs, and this is a. Guy who has money, like, don't we want him in our town? Like how do you, how do you engage folks on that question?

KeShaun: It's an assumption of transferable wealth, right? That's what I think. Like it is it like through osmosis, like, because he's around me like, we're gonna get richer guys.

KeShaun: Right. But that's not how it works. Right. And it. Is exemplified in the fact that he doesn't even pay his bills on time, right? XAI is still behind on their MLGW light bill. Now if you, from Memphis, you know, um, as Memphis Light Gas and Robbers, okay? These people, they gonna cut your lights off immediately, right?

KeShaun: But. Elon Musk is, is able to, to do things in that way, but it's also, um, important that we break out all of these myths, right? [00:24:00] Data centers are not software companies, right? Software companies. You need engineers, you need marketing, you need sales, right? Data centers are huge warehouses of computer service where there's like two people walking around just making sure all the lights are on, right?

KeShaun: And so it, it is not materially going to economically benefit anyone. These facilities, I call 'em, uh, energy vampires, that's all they do. They just suck up a ton of energy and they don't provide you the economic benefits that folks are looking for. But it's easy, right when it is the most wealthy person on paper, uh, in the world.

KeShaun: That is, is providing, uh, so much misinformation and creating this myth around the economic development that's, we're not actually seeing, and it's really insidious because in Memphis we need it. We are in one of the poorest metropolitan areas in the country. And to dangle a carrot of economic development of stability [00:25:00] financially, we've been economically strangled for so long and needed a breath of fresh air.

KeShaun: And so it is. Cruel to use the myth of economic prosperity to push forward a project that is only gonna bring pain and pollution. And so what we've learned is that this facility, the long-term jobs for Ians are janitorial. They are security jobs and they're about maybe 15 to 20 for these million square foot facilities.

KeShaun: Even the construction jobs have been contracted out to folks from Texas. Right. So he's bringing in his own construction workers. That's a myth. He just said that. So that's that. Right, right. So, you know, that's the, that's the myth. And we had continue to break down those myths about these projects.

Marisol: Thank you.

Marisol: Keshawn. Those, this, it's the same problems everywhere, right? Like I, one of the. The difficult barriers that I think everybody is seeing is how developers make relationships with unions [00:26:00] months ahead of time to like get the buy-in and then get them to show up with signs to the different community sessions that they hold.

Marisol: But at one of those events, I stopped and talked with this man who is there as a representative in favor of the project, and half of what he said to me was against it. It was just his own. Experience of, I have grandkids. I don't have retirement savings. I commute to Phoenix every day to be able to work in construction because there's not development happening here in Tucson.

Marisol: Um, so the way we are thinking about that and answering that is facilitating community dialogues in town halls surrounding like, what kind of economic development do we actually wanna see in Tucson? What is beneficial to the community? I mean, like, guys, affordable housing is a number one, super easy one that we just need to also like build, build the funding structures to support that.

Marisol: So for me, and many of us in the coalition, the way we're seeing that is like. Citizens initiatives to try and, I don't know who's watching this, but [00:27:00] to try and build like maybe a tax structure that helps us to fund jobs like that, to fund housing. There are a lot of also like just serving each other in community.

Marisol: There's a lot of need in, in different jobs that are very dignified that can pay well if we fund them, right? So just thinking about those pieces, but also like listening, because all of this is predicated upon scarcity, be it real or manufactured and like. Listening to someone who is voting in favor of a project out of fear.

Marisol: Like, I saw this at a, a citizen advisory committee. It was like 15 people who, like almost all of them voted in favor of a data center because of like, I could just see it in their eyes, like they got it, but they were also like, I need income. I need to be able to keep living where I'm living and have a, like a good job.

Marisol: So listening and building relationships so that it's not like. I'm coming out here and I'm telling you exactly what I know and you need to know it too. Like what, what do you need? What do you want to see? And I think that relational way of doing our work is. [00:28:00] Absolutely critical if we are to like succeed in building a large scale coalition against data centers.

KD: Absolutely. That part. Yeah. When you know they come in talking all of this infrastructure, right? But when I think of like true community infrastructure, I think of mutual aid, right? I think about feeding your neighbors right? Or. When a hurricane comes and folks need to evacuate, you bring your neighbor with you.

KD: Right? And so they're almost bludgeoning us with our desperation, right? One of the things we heard the most often was, uh, this is the poorest corner of the state. The poorest, right? And right now as we're talking about this, Louisiana is seeing like the fourth highest increase in energy prices, right? We use more energy than anywhere else in the country because we can't hold the energy, right?

KD: And so when we should be advocating for things like energy efficiency and weatherization, like things that we know work, instead, we're rerouting our resources and our attention into these. Fever dreams of a very [00:29:00] rich men who will never step foot in these properties, right? And so it's, it's really disheartening to see that happen when so much pain is happening, when people are being disappeared and taken and their lights are being disconnected, but somehow we've got all this money to build all this stuff that does not work, quite literally, does not work.

KD: And it is displacing true solutions that community could be using.

Alix: Amazing. Good. You put it like that, I'm convinced.

KD: Right?

Alix: Right. These data centers sound bad. Yeah, yeah. Um, but Oba, I know you, like when we, we were talking a little bit about how this extends beyond physical infrastructure, like these centers are being used for things in these communities.

Alix: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Do you want to,

Amba: yeah, I'd like turning to the question of like, what are we building this for? I think outside of the promise, the kind of economic development mythology, there's also the broader mythology around AI as progress. Like you're either with us or you are like helping China win some race.

Amba: [00:30:00] We're not sure towards what, but like there's, there's all of those atmospherics, which I feel like has definitely, you know, whether it's the, the federal, national at the local level, it's definitely part of the calculus that's informing or causing a chilling effect for policy makers and, uh, and local officials.

Amba: But equally, I guess. I was really curious, like what are the ways in which the mounting evidence of AI driven harms or AI related harms, how is that, if at all, playing into organizing strategy? Um, and, and, and equally the kind of like bigger picture question of more and more people in this country and all over the world are seeing AI companies as.

Amba: Part of what we're now naming as the tech oligarchy and like how, if at all, is that. But yeah, I wanted to start with you Marisol, because I am really interested in sort of particularly ICE's use of AI and border surveillance and, and how that showed up in, in Project Blue resistance.

Marisol: Yes. It was a really important piece.

Marisol: We made sure to [00:31:00] prioritize in our messaging, like just because it's so, it's palpable. It's palpable in the community, the, the fear and the actual like effects of ice being able to surveil, have so much presence, both physical and technological. And there was also a connection that this surveillance is also being used just like these same projects, these same.

Marisol: Programs are used to select targets both at the border and in Gaza. Like I have been to the border wall newly constructed only once, and when I was there, it just like its presence was so impactful. It really felt like earth stacked against Earth in a way that it didn't want to be there. But knowing that all of the technologies that are being used to secure securitize our border.

Marisol: Have been tested on Palestinians, and also I recently learned this, that like every piece of information that US Border Patrol is collecting is shared with the Mexican [00:32:00] government. And because of corruption, that means the cartels have access to like everything, anything about you. If you've crossed the southern border, the cartel also knows about you.

Marisol: So just thinking about like how it's a false hood, right? All of this securitization is, is falsehood the fact that. These programs or these technologies like beget more surveillance, like it requires surveillance to learn to do what it needs to do, and then it serves more surveillance. Just thinking about like these broader harms, I think was an important entry point for a lot of activists in Tucson or people who just care about other humans in Tucson.

Marisol: Yeah,

Amba: I feel like New Orleans has been in the news recently for, you know, facial recognition, but like it's, it's relationship. In particular, but also a much long like, you know, predictive policing. How, if at all, does that figure in this fight?

KD: Yeah, absolutely. Louisiana is still the prison capital of the world, right?

KD: And when ICE was infiltrating or has been infiltrating communities, they were shipping folks down to Louisiana for a reason. Right. And so [00:33:00] we were kind of the testing grounds of the country down in New Orleans way back in 2012, right when the gift of philanthropy brought us Palantir, right? And so they were testing our.

KD: Faces and facial recognition, and it took our city council intervening. Not really successfully, but it took them intervening and we come to find out they used it six times and got six false positives. Right? And so how many folks had been li how many of their lives had been completely uprooted from. Bad software.

KD: Right? And then if you are walking in New Orleans, like literally there's a camera on every single corner. We are now one of the most surveilled cities in the world, right? All that software lives somewhere and there are very bad actors who are participating, right? Another. Found that there was an entire secret police network that they were using and running facial recognition.

KD: And if a, a BOLO or something came up, they would just text each [00:34:00] other from these secret cameras, this secret camera network, and that's how they were making arrests. And it would never make it to the gist, right? And so there's these compounding issues, but when you look at it, Louisiana really is the nexus of all of the things happening at once.

Amba: Yeah. The, the question of what is, uh, AI used for is also, it's, it's kind of crazy because the, the grand narratives also have their version of the benefit story, and it's usually, you know, AI is somehow somewhere down the line going to cure cancer, which is especially cynical when you think about what Kishan just told us.

Amba: And so, yeah. Turning to you, Khan, I'm, I'm curious too, because the, the playbook that you describe of what happened in Memphis and with XAI, it feels like in some ways, the rest of the country became very familiar with that playbook with, with what happened with Doge and the Department of Government efficiency takeover.

Amba: I guess, how do you see your fight as like connecting to the, the broader political battlefield? I have to stop with the military metaphors, but Yeah, like, yeah, yeah. [00:35:00]

KeShaun: Trust me. It is so hard to, to disengage this. AI development from militarism, right? X ai. The facility is in Memphis, right? The facility is polluting the folks in Memphis in our air, but they just got rewarded, a Department of Defense, $200 million contract to use gr, and they have, it created a suite of apps for a military use.

KeShaun: And so this connection between government at the federal level and our local issues, there is no gap. There is no gap. This is happening in real time. And so, uh, for us, it is this constant watching our city become an experiment. Doge cut funding for the Boys and Girls Club as a part of Elon Musk idea.

KeShaun: Elon Musk then got on Twitter months later, a couple months later and said that we're gonna open two facilities in Memphis Boys and Girls Clubs. It's my [00:36:00] charity to open two boys and girls clubs for two years. And so it is this act, it is the causing the problem and then offering a solution and the, the game that they're playing, it's costing people real time and they're, it is costing us our real lives.

KeShaun: And so it's just disgusting to me. It's cruel, uh, but it's something we have to pay attention to because these things are not so separate. The environmental racism and the environmental injustice. Is not separated from the oppressive surveil nature and militar militaristic nature of the decisions happening at the federal level, the rollbacks, uh, that are happening, but also the benefits, right?

KeShaun: Listen, if, if I was money laundering, I would work for the government and then get a contract. So, I mean, that's what I'm seeing. So

Alix: I feel like, can I pick up on the, so, um, two outta the three of you live in cities where Trump has sort of. Soft [00:37:00] floated, sending the National Guard. Um, and I think joining up this local and federal fight, I'd love to hear from each of you, like when you think about the local organizing you're doing, how you see those local fights kind of rolling up into this larger American political moment.

KD: Um, I don't know if you've ever been to New Orleans, but it truly is a magical space, steeped in a history of resistance. I'm like, it's some fighters down there. That's right. That's right. Yeah. They can come if they want. Right. That that's what the folks are saying. Come. You can come if you want. Can you fight?

KD: Like, can you beat my ass? Like seriously, like likes, like we've, again, this is a 300 year old city that is literally seen every, if we hung our hats on everything, that was inevitable, right? Everything that was happening, we would be in much different space. Right? But because we've. Steeped ourselves in authenticity, right in radical community care, [00:38:00] mutual aid, the, the history of second lines and, and social aid and pleasure club.

KD: Community is the center of New Orleans, and so you can send in what you want. Okay. How is that any different than our already daily lives? Right? We have stop and frisk, right? We are poor black people in a city where the state won't even allow us to get more tax revenue from tourism. Right? So when you have all these compoundings, like what else could you do, dude?

KD: What else can you fight?

KeShaun: That's real. So when I think about this threat, right, just in the National Guard, and what it really hearkens to me is that instead of learning right from mass incarceration, we did all of this crime, law and order and it failed, right? Well, I can't even, it failed us black people, black men specifically, and black women as, as well.[00:39:00]

KeShaun: But it benefited who, right? And so this continued militarization, uh, and this what I call the Confederate experiment that is happening in Tennessee with the super majority at our state legislature. That is against free will in the First Amendment for some while protecting it, and especially the Second Amendment for others.

KeShaun: Memphis ain't no stranger right to combining militarism. And social issues, and especially environmental justice. They killed Dr. Martin Luther King because he came down to Memphis and marched with sanitation workers who were striking, right? The I Am a man March in 1968, and so the National Guard was pushed right after that.

KeShaun: Right now, the black people need to be taken off the streets, need a curfew, right? Have to be watched, and so it is this idea. That the government [00:40:00] and corporate inspired government chill free speech, chill, the ability for people to protest against what's happening it is, is not far fetched to see how protesting against XAI and its leader who was at Doge and this new National Guard development are connected.

KeShaun: It is this continued. Oppressive nature of silencing and undermining black sovereignty, belt, black leadership, and ultimately black people. Because if I can poison you right, and pollute your air, but then also bring in a national guard to protect us and not you, to bring more fear. To bring more silence, that that's that experiment.

KeShaun: That's the next, uh, iteration of deconstruction and. We are not standing for it.

KD: Can I have a read you, I have a much more elegant answer.[00:41:00]

KeShaun: No, that was good.

Marisol: No. Okay. Um, Mari, any thoughts on this one? I do, um, I'm just reflecting on like the privilege that I have as a white person and also like as a person living in a city that doesn't have like any of any of these targets, like really strategic ways of harming people. So like. I invite everyone in here to sit with those realities.

Marisol: Um, those lived experiences that we do and don't have. But the, the gift of this horrible time, of this administration and all of the things moving, um, at this moment is that it's enlivening a lot of people to become participants in activism. That previously it was like so easy to just like not. Pay attention at all.

Marisol: And I'm hoping that people are also looking back into the histories and learning about like, oh, maybe I should have been more participatory before. But I think our like moment in the movement was born out of like people already [00:42:00] being involved in the resistance to ice activism happening in Tucson. So.

Marisol: Yeah. I just wanted to, to name that pattern that I think is, is happening everywhere here. I'm thankful for that.

KD: And we have each other, now we have each other. We do messed up.

KeShaun: Right, right. Teamwork. The, the, the other thing I wanted to add is, is that historically these are places that they haven't invested in.

KeShaun: You would invest in gas plants, right? You invest in these billion dollar projects that don't materially benefit the people who live there. And so we need investment. We don't need occupation, right? To have cameras on every corner to be overpoliced right and over jail, we need the, the money that y'all coming up with to pay for all of these data centers.

KeShaun: Why is it not going to public transit? Why is it not going to housing? Why is it not going to a sustainable ecosystem that will benefit us all? It's, to me, it, it's intentional, like you're intentionally not. [00:43:00] Investing in light rail, right? You're intentionally not investing in raising the damn minimum wage, right?

KeShaun: Apparently y'all have the money, and so it, it is this intentional effort to provide a mythology around a technology, right? It is this idea of technical determinism, like the technology is gonna save us. We literally are failing a open book test. Like that is exactly what's happening. You're, you're, we're filling out open book test with ai.

KeShaun: Like we have the solutions, we have the answers. They are not being invested in, they are not the, the wisdom. Right. Learning from history. It's not happening. We've lived through, well, not me, but this country has been through the industrial era, right? We know what it's like when power consolidates around rich people who believe that this invention is gonna do everything [00:44:00] and be the best things in sliced bread, and it's not.

KeShaun: And then who lives with the fallout? Who lives in these sacrifice zones? Shout to Mustafa, Santiago Ali for that language, but. Now we're looking at digital redlining, where those same communities who suffer from the factories are now suffering from this new technology. It is not innovation if it shackles you to fossil fuels.

KeShaun: Again, that's just the truth. And so if. Your data center folks aren't as ambitious as Elon Musk and they didn't seek to build a power plant right next to the facility. They are still contributing to the demands on the grid that are forcing these folks to reopen coal plants, to bring more gas turbines to our country.

KeShaun: We don't need the pollution. If anything, we need investments in clean energy. We need investments in people, and we need investments in [00:45:00] progress. That looks like health equity. And that's just not happening. Sorry, I'm gonna,

Alix: I mean, for president, I don't know. Um, but I do wanna end on a note of hope. 'cause I feel like you all have, I think, more positive visions of where things could go.

Alix: I mean, we're hearing some of that and even as you described this open book test, like these answers are clear. So I wanted to ask each of you sort of something that is making you feel hopeful. I feel like it's a. Maybe a nice place to end and I'm gonna, I get to go first. I'm gonna cheat. Um, and I think meeting you all has been one of the most uplifting experiences I have had in months.

Alix: It's just been so nice to get to know you over the last few days and like just hear your vision for where we might go, hear your analysis on what's happening. And it's just been such a pleasure having you here and like getting to know you all this week. So that's my, I'm going first, um, AMBA.

Amba: There's gonna be Athena.

Amba: I, I will say that this conversation has felt so like profoundly like optimistic. I like it. It really like, thank you all for your leadership and for like finding ways to talk about all of this that just really, it [00:46:00] hits viscerally and that's what this space has been lacking for so long. I also. In what you all have said can tell that this is the version of the conversation that is most dangerous to the malignant idiots and, and is kind of what should light up our, our strategies.

Amba: So thank you.

KeShaun: Okay, I'll go next. Y'all, we've been through this before. Right after the unfortunate assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, we had the civil rights bills passed after what folks had to experience in California with the deaths from smog. We got the Clean Air Act, and we got the EPA. Right? We continue to meet the moment there is no revolution coming.

KeShaun: This is it, right? Say with me, I am. I'm a revolutionary. A revolutionary. One more time. I am. I'm a revolutionary. A revolutionary, and that's what it's gonna take, is participation. Everybody in here [00:47:00] has to participate. If you don't have a data center, you will. And if you don't have a data center in the next five years, you should still be involved in a data center fight.

KeShaun: You and those people in your group chat. I know you got 'em. They should be involved. They should know that you are here and that you care about what's happening here. They should know about what's going on in Memphis because what's going on in Memphis is just a prototype for what will happen everywhere else.

KeShaun: But I'm gonna tell you this. I know Mama Maxine. I know Miss Purley. Right. I know all of them are watching, and that is what I believe. I believe that the people who have seen this happen before have seen us go through these times and come out better, more intelligent, more transformed. That is what is going to happen.

KeShaun: I believe in every single person in here. I believe in our human spirit. Hope is real. There is a hope molecule, right? But it only is [00:48:00] activated if you move. We cannot stay still in this moment. We can't be quiet. We can't, we are not gonna be able to write enough or pontificate enough, or theorize enough to make real change happen.

KeShaun: It will only happen by us doing, knocking on doors, making phone calls, putting pressure where it needs to be, and we have to continue to do that together. We are all. The torch bearers of hope for one another and for our future. So that's why, that's why I'm hopeful because y'all here, I'm hopeful because of these folks up here on the stage and everybody, we all connected to, I believe in us.

KeShaun: They're about, what? What is it? You got meta, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? It's about five, some of them seven. It is. It is more of us in this room and they

KD: fight. It's more,

KeShaun: it's more of us online,

KD: right? So

KeShaun: we got 'em outnumbered and so people power. Is, is what's gonna change this thing. And so I'm excited to be on this [00:49:00] journey of success.

KeShaun: Because we gonna win.

Marisol: Mm-hmm.

KeShaun: Thank y'all.

Marisol: Yeah, thank you. So hard to follow. One thing that gives me hope is how like the unexpected feature of data center people targeting our communities is that it? It connects across political divides. Like, like I've met some very committed Republicans who are also enraged about being targeted for data centers.

Marisol: So like it's giving us this medicine that we need as a community in this nation state to like be together against something. And then actually realizing conversation that we are the working class and we actually all have shared needs and opinions besides like, whatever is fed to us as the the things that divide us.

Marisol: Also like really the spirit moves in this, in all of us. Like I think it's out of necessity. Like this is we, it is. Super like critical that we win this fight in all the little pieces that make it, and to [00:50:00] also continue to fight against this notion of inevitability, like both inevitability that this future is gonna happen or the opposite, like hyper optimistic, like, oh, well things will be okay.

Marisol: Right? No, like you said, it takes labor. Yes, it takes labor and it takes paying the laborers who make this possible, right? Like, like I said, those seven weeks of working around the clock, not a single person. You got a single penny for that work. Um, so just thinking about like how, how you can support the people who are doing that work in your community if you're not able to, to be the one on the front lines.

Marisol: Thank you. Go ahead. Oh.

KD: So at my core, I am a hater. Come on. Oh, okay. Y the biggest spite like really drive me, y'all, and, and at a time where like leadership is not meeting the moment. Right. I recognize that it's gonna be the hat. That are [00:51:00] really gonna get us up out of this, right? Like, we are going to be the ones to rally the troops, right?

KD: So bring back hate, right? Be the person in the audience. Yes, baby loudly booing. Put your thumb down, like thumbs down emoji. That energy is sustaining. It really is. And it, it is going to be the, y'all watch, I'm telling you. Y'all going, y'all gonna say, KD said it. Despite the anger, the righteousness is what's going to carry us, right?

KD: And so I'm excited like the next phase of this, like this is our first linkup, right? Yeah. Imagine the three of us in a month, right? Having gathered the experiences and perspectives from around the country and the world, y'all, we got this, like this is our fight and we are going.

Alix: So special thanks to KeShaun Pearson, Marisol and KD Minor, um, for coming all the way to [00:52:00] New York for the live show and other things around Climate Week. It was so amazing getting to know them. Um, if you haven't heard of their work, please do go check it out. Thank you to Amba Kak from AI now who co-hosted, um, with us to Illuminate Foundation, who sponsored the show, um, and made it possible for us to bring together so many people around good food, good drink, and really fantastic conversation.

Alix: Thank you to Sarah Myles and Georgia Iacovou for. As ever editing these episodes, and we will see you on Friday for our next installment in our gotcha series.